The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to Kuwait at the 1976 Summer Olympics. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 01:49, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Abdul Aziz Abdul Kareem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Declined prod with no attempt to add additional sources. Lacking third party in-depth coverage to meet WP:SPORTSCRIT. LibStar (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics, Sport of athletics, and Kuwait. LibStar (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, I expanded the article with new sources including Al Rai describing him as "the grandfather of training". Subject did much more than just competing at a single Olympics, he had a twelve-year career spanning multiple international championships for Kuwait. A Wikipedian who knows Arabic should take a look at these search results for further coverage. --Habst (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, per Habst's expansion, WP:NBASIC and common sense. Any understanding of the sport and country would indicate that a twelve-year international career with multiple Olympic appearances, and becoming known as the "grandfather of training" for his coaching after his playing career is, I guarantee, something that would be further covered significantly. The issue is that our access to sources from the time are ridiculously poor and this guy has like a dozen names he could have been covered under, and none of us speak Arabic, which makes this extremely hard to search for. Nonetheless a decent article has been developed with his significant accomplishments and coverage has been found showing he was known as a very accomplished figure in Kuwaiti athletics. He's notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  It doesn't say "grandfather of training", it says "rapporteur" or "coordination officer" for training.

  The national athletics team is preparing for its external training camp and participation in regional meetings, as well as friendly tournaments, the ninth Asian Games, which will be held in Delmi, and the World Athletics Championship, which will be held in Morocco. The inclusion of new stars in the ranks of the national team, Wydad, has also led to the exclusion of a large number of prominent names from the national team. This has caused a great deal of controversy in the sports community, especially among athletics fans. The person closest to explaining these sudden changes was the player Al-Donli and the member of the board of directors and the rapporteur for training and national teams, Abdul Aziz Abdul Karim Al-Hadba. He explained to us several reasons, as follows: [press release]

  
  He is a spokesman. JoelleJay (talk) 01:44, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for finding this again. What is your source for the machine translation? I have a different read on it, because I don't see the word "spokesman" or "press release" anywhere, and I think what he says is also relevant as reported by a major paper. --Habst (talk) 01:59, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:19, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Delete upon hearing the arguments I realized that I was hasty to assume the sources where there when they weren't thus I have changed my vote Scooby453w (talk) 13:32, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - What secondary sources are we relying on here? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:22, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  As i stated the sources provided/referenced by habst namley https://archive.org/search?query=%22%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%B2+%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%85%22&sin=TXT which seems to indicate several sources mentioning him (though I don't know Arabic there seems to be alot of them) Scooby453w (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for the reply (the question was not just aimed at you btw - it was a general one). However, I'm not especially impressed by search results. The question is, what secondary sources do we have that we are relying on to say this subject meets WP:GNG. One of those might be secondary, but if no one has read any of them, then I do not see how we are ready to make that determination. To illustrate the problem, the first hit there reads (using machine translation):

  The announcement of the Indian Court of First Instance No. A to 114 The plaintiff - Zahir Latif Aboud to the defendant Asaad Jawad Kadhim Al-Barrak lives in Hindi Mahalla Al-Kas Nada Send the invitation to you. If you do not attend, you will send an agent against you, you will plead against you according to the principles. Judge Fawzi Makhlif Hajim Court, Yadida Al-Karadah, to / Al-Ladih, their boxes are 1 Hassan Abdul Aziz Abdul Kareem Othman Abdel-Ardiz Abdel-Karim Barikh Ka This court issued a decision in the case number 43/1 1, which requires that you pay an amount of (0477) dinars.

  Now that doesn't appear to be the page subject at all. It is certainly not about the subject, the mention, if it is anything, is passing, and that is very clearly a primary source. So that one is clearly out. What about the next one? Well that is an article listing those newly licensed to teach in primary education. The name or namesake of the subject is listed alongside a lot of others. Again, a passing mention in a primary source. We would not be entitled to gather from this that the subject is a teacher, and there is literally nothing else there. Now this issue will persist, because these are hits on the search string in an archive, but they are not actually sources. At the moment, I do not see any secondary sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Perhapes we could try finding someone who can understand arabic to look for some sources. if any exist for this subject they are likley in Arabic also i believe the al rai article was cited as a reliable source but it has to be downloaded to view it and i haven't had the time yet to read it Scooby453w (talk) 20:55, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sirfurboy, I'm not sure what result you are referring to. The source cited in the article [1] is about the subject (not a namesake), and it's not merely a listing. See May 10, 1982 coverage page 12.

  Of course I could go and search for Chris Evans (presenter) and the first result might be about the actor, that doesn't mean that the presenter isn't notable. You need to filter out the results that aren't relevant. --Habst (talk) 21:13, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I am referring to the search in archive.org above from Scoony453w. The first source I see is [2] and the second is [3]. My point is that doing a search and presenting the hits is not finding sources. We need to be reading the sources and then discussing those that look good. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:10, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, we already have sources cited in the article. Any additional sources we find on top of that could help build the case, but we agree it's not a negative indication that there will be namesakes in search results. --Habst (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Which of these are secondary sources in your opinion? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:16, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Analysis in Al Rai is secondary for one. --Habst (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Please paste all the content on Kareem so we can actually validate this is secondary significant coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 15:57, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Archive.org is down just now. If you have a copy, I would appreciate a paste too. Otherwise it will have to wait. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:05, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Some coverage is on May 10, 1982 page 12 using archive.org's numbering; it is cited in the article. I don't have it saved if archive.org is down. You can also find it by just searching the subject's Arabic name in that archive. Can retrieve and copy-paste it later today if it's back up --Habst (talk) 17:38, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect. Nothing remotely convincing among the unfiltered search results, which clearly do not all correspond to the same subject, e.g. a hit in Egypt for a former college dean in 1968 (when he would have been 16)[4], an announcement for a master's thesis on the Arab League in 1992 in Jordan[5], some Saudi OB/Gyn[6], lost-and-found ads[7][8], and (comprising the vast majority of results I looked at) hits among many context-free lists of names[9][10][11][12][13][14][15]. The "grandfather of training" moniker (which I haven't been able to replicate) is simply a bizarre translation of "rapporteur for Jeddah's training and national teams", suggesting this is a completely different person in Saudi Arabia (the order of the names is also not the same, his is "Abdul Aziz Abdul Karim Al-Hadba").[16] JoelleJay (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @JoelleJay, thanks for this analysis. What is your source for the machine translation above, because in past AfDs we have discussed that neither of us know Arabic? Also have you tried adding "athletics" or other related terms to narrow the search? --Habst (talk) 12:44, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  You didn't think you needed a source for your machine translation before you put it in mainspace! "مقرر" means "rapporteur". " جدة" is "Jeddah". I ran the whole paragraph through Google Translate, Lingvanex, Reverso, and QuillBot, and they all came back with very similar translations, none of which resembled "grandfather of training" and all of which indicated he was acting as a spokesperson. JoelleJay (talk) 17:34, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for adding a source, which one was used to create the above paragraph? I used DeepL, which is the recommended translation service by {{Expand Arabic}}. wikt:مقرر shows that the term could also mean "established", and I don't see the word "rapporteur" anywhere as a definition for that word. As always with language, context is very important and I want to be accurate so we can decide if the coverage is sufficient. --Habst (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Join the lines together (removing extraneous carriage returns) as they are in the source, and DeepL will get it right too. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sirfurboy, do you think you can help us request an Arabic speaker to look this over to settle the questions about the wording and notability? --Habst (talk) 18:20, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  That is unnecessary. مقرر in English orthography is muqarar. To understand its meaning here, it is necessary to notice that it is a noun. In Arabic, the prefix "Mu-" is added to a verb (which here is the verb "to confess", "to report") to make it a noun referring to the person or thing carrying out the action of the verb. Consider how we have the word "Muslim" being the person who carries out the action of submission/surrender [to God] - "Islam". There's something going on with vowels there too that we don't need to get into. But that is what we have here. The noun form of this word refers to the one doing the action of reporting or confession. Rapporteur is the correct translation. DeepL got it wrong for you because the sentences were chopped up by the OCR, and DeepL could not determine that it was a noun. Full disclosure: I only have A1 Arabic. However, I have studied how the language works, alongside other Semitic languages, one of which I know a little better. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:49, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I understand the prescriptive rules relating to this, but that's different than the descriptive meaning that words take on in usage generally understood better by native speakers. Taking it back to the notability of the subject, why do you think the coverage is primary and/or passing? More than any one word, I think a native speaker could assist more with that determination of the entire passage (including the quoted text omitted above and any followup). --Habst (talk) 20:50, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Kuwait at the 1976 Summer Olympics - Per JoelleJay and also per the above discussion. I have also been able to review the Al Rai source now, and not only do I concur with JoelleJay's assessment of it, but the fact that we cannot even suppose this refers to the page subject both demonstrates that this is a primary source (in addition to it being passing, not SIGCOV), and also why we cannot use primary sources for notability. Placing in the article that he was the "grandfather of training" was an error of translation, but also of judgement. A primary source calling someone something cannot be used to make the assertion that someone is something in a tertiary encyclopaedic article. There are good reasons for that which are too extensive for this comment, but give it some thought and it should be clear why not. The sources we would need would be the secondary sources that discuss the subject and this role, showing what it actually means, and providing evidence, context and background. Those secondary sources would be synthesised by historians from primary sources, handled correctly. Wikipedia articles must not create their own synthesis, per our policy on original research. So, we have no secondary sources for this article. We cannot synthesise an article from primary sources. We cannot therefore write this article and it should be deleted, although the redirect is an appropriate WP:ATD. Should secondary treatments be found, the article could be rewritten from them. But again, sources must be secondary. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:26, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sirfurboy and @JoelleJay, just to be clear, do you believe that there are two different people who were both active at the same time in the middle east, both work in a niche area of track and field, and both have the name Abdul Aziz Abdul Karim Al-Hadba (or a slightly different order but the same name which is common amongst names from Olympedia), and that those are not the same person? Also per WP:PRIMARYNEWS, news reporting can be secondary and often is with analysis. --Habst (talk) 12:41, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  But here it is primary. It is also a passing mention. It is out on both counts. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:30, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Why is it primary or a passing mention based on what you've seen? --Habst (talk) 15:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  It has part of one sentence of coverage on him, the rest of it is quotes from him as the rapporteur for training. That is a passing mention of him. JoelleJay (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure where the word "rapporteur" is coming from, can we request an Arabic-speaking Wikipedian to mediate? I understand that quotes aren't typically considered independent from the subject, but they can be notability-contributing if a major newspaper decided to publish them, then that's the newspaper making a judgement on the subject. --Habst (talk) 18:16, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Answered above. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:53, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Quotes do not contribute to GNG. We've been over this. Give it a rest. JoelleJay (talk) 03:10, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Or Redirect - The issue here is that Habst hasn't actually added any reliable, independent notability-indicating sources, containing significant biographical information about the subject, to the article.. All of the sources added are just database-listings and passing mentions. None of the sources cited above for this person with a highly-generic name for a Kuwaiti fix this.

We're still just circling the same point that was already deprecated in 2022: just having been in the Olympics doesn't make you notable. FOARP (talk) 09:46, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Habst is constructing his/her own reality again with the "grandfather" nonsense, as well as the desperate reach regarding quotes. But given that there are multiple possible redirect targets, shouldn't this be solved similarly to Mohamed Sy Savané? Geschichte (talk) 09:53, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  How do i switch my vote? I now believe the delete argument has won out Scooby453w (talk) 14:18, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Simply edit the page and enclose your "keep" with strike through markup like this <s>'''Keep'''</s>. You can then place the new !vote beside it or else place it as a new comment. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  thanks! Scooby453w (talk) 15:38, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @Geschichte There is currently no consensus to use navigation pages in that way – see the ongoing discussion at the Village Pump: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Navigation_pages. Toadspike [Talk] 12:24, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Kuwait at the 1976 Summer Olympics as an alternative to deletion – WP:WHYN and WP:SPORTCRIT both respectively state that "We require the existence of at least one secondary source so that the article can comply with Wikipedia:No original research's requirement that all articles be based on secondary sources." and that "All sports biographies [...] must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources. [...]" The sources provided in the article do not help in establishing notability since they are database listings (hence they're not secondary). Searches performed on (but not limited to) Google or Newspapers.com didn't turn up any sources that would help establish notability (mostly because they seem to show other people with the same name as "Abdul Aziz Abdul Kareem"), nor do the sources shown in the Internet Archive. Looking at what we currently have, there doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy WP:GNG. But as a side note, please, everybody, stay on topic and comment on content, not on the contributor. It's not fair to comment on other editors when they have done nothing but assume good faith whilst attempting to have a constructive conversation. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Kuwait at the 1976 Summer Olympics: Like others, I don't see the needed WP:SIGCOV for this subject to meet the WP:SPORTSBASIC. The Al Rai source is a passing mention and the sources in the article appear to be databases. Let'srun (talk) 20:20, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.